Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Foreign welcome to Elaine is reading the strange case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, episode 11, chapters six and seven, part one.
[00:00:12] I combined these chapters because they are two of my favorites and because they are very similar in feeling and foundation.
[00:00:20] Utterson's situation with Jekyll reflects what it's like trying to be friends with an addict or someone with mental illness. It's a shame that no ADAP truly address the heartbreak, betrayal and conflicting feelings that go along with being friends with someone in a self destructive spiral.
[00:00:48] Hey everyone, welcome back to Elena's reading Reckless reads Jekyll and Hyde.
[00:00:59] First off, I want to apologize for taking like month off. I didn't really take a month off.
[00:01:07] I was a little unwell.
[00:01:10] I've got some chronic illness issues and autoimmune issues and unfortunately I got a little mauled by the updated COVID vaccine that I got in early September and my body just did not like it very much and it took a long time for me to get back up to speed.
[00:01:28] So I just took some time off trying to recover, get my energy back and so far so good. I think maybe by next week I'll be like fully back to my normal energy levels.
[00:01:42] But I wanted to try and get this video out because I was really excited to cover these next two chapters.
[00:01:51] So last time we met I did the Incident of the Letter, which is my least favorite chapter of the entire book. In fact, I hate it so much I don't even want to talk about it anymore. I just, I think it's just so awful. But if you watch my last video, you know why chapter six and seven are, I would say my two favorite chapters.
[00:02:25] And then leading up to actually from six onward, six, seven, eight and chapter nine are my favorite. Like chapters. Like this is where when I first read this I got, I was really, really fascinated. Like I was interested the whole time, kind of the build up and everything.
[00:02:47] But it wasn't until here that I really was very, very interested in what was going on in the story. Like, let's just say like plot wise, the primary plot structure that everyone is accustomed to knowing about Jekyll and Hyde.
[00:03:07] That these chapters are where you first really start to get a feel for that plot structure, the one that everybody says they know, you know about who Jekyll is and who Hyde is and all that stuff up to this point. I think it's like these little teeny tiny breadcrumbs if at all.
[00:03:31] And you really, if you don't know anything about this story. And like I said last Time. I don't think there's anybody that doesn't know. But if you are someone who's never read this and never heard of it and never watched anything about it. I don't think that the first five chapters are particularly compelling. And I don't think that they really give you a reason to care about what's going on.
[00:03:55] If you don't take the perspective of caring about Utterson and why he cares about what's going on. So if you completely don't care about any of the other characters in the book, which most people don't. I don't think that you'll find the first five chapters something that makes you go, ooh, I wonder what's going on. Because the only reason you care about what's going on is because Utterson cares about finding out.
[00:04:21] After the first five chapters, I would say things start getting more.
[00:04:26] Let's just write about what's going on kind of thing. And I think it stops trying to be subtle. And I think it stops trying to be mysterious. And it actually focuses on real moments of, let's say, horror and confusion and tension and absolute sort of mind blowing kind of shock up until the very last chapter of the book, which is Dr. Jekyll's final letter to Utterson. Which is basically, you know, like a journal. Journal entries from him explaining everything he did and why and blah, blah, blah. Which I think is the most boring part of the whole book. It's like the end of Psycho. Like, why are we talking about this? I really wish, and I said this before that this book ended with Dr. Lanyon's narrative. I think that would have been a perfect ending.
[00:05:17] And I think you could have spent a long time talking about what you believe happened and what you think Dr. Jekyll was doing. Instead of getting it all laid out for you in this way that tries to make Jekyll this sympathetic figure that, you know, everyone who's ever made an adaptation of this book obsesses over the last chapter and thinks it's the most important part of the whole story. And. And I think it's actually the worst part of the whole story. I think it's the least interesting part of the whole story. I've said this numerous times. I think Dr. Jekyll is the least interesting character in the book.
[00:05:49] So I am very, very interested. Six, seven, eight, and nine are for me, the best parts of this novel.
[00:06:01] I'll die on that hill. I think they're the best parts of this novel.
[00:06:05] So today we're gonna. I I'm gonna talk about six and seven. Because seven is like, literally, I think, two and a half pages, if. If Even so, I'm gonna lump that in with this. Because I think it. It carries over. It's an important chapter. I think the fact that it's separated into two chapters, I think is just so that we can have incident of Dr. Lanyon and incident at the Window. But honestly, it's the same incident in my mind. It's the same sort of point of trying to tell you that there. Something really messed up has been going on.
[00:06:46] And I said in a previous video. That these little breadcrumbs that we've gotten about Dr. Lanyon and Dr. Jekyll. Where they're kind of like. They talk about each other in the same way.
[00:06:55] And there's something going on with them that's scientific. That's more about doctors not agreeing with each other. It's not just old friends having a disagreement. This is a scientific disagreement. There is a difference in beliefs and a difference in how you come at science and what you do with science and all that.
[00:07:17] Those are the fundamental problems between Lanyon and Jekyll. And I think that it's important to note that. And even though Stevenson doesn't give you a whole heck of a lot of information about that relationship.
[00:07:36] Because Utterson isn't a scientist and he doesn't care. And he's. He's just like, oh, we're old friends. Why can't we be old friends? And that sort of thing. He's not listening to what Dr. Lanyon is saying. And he's not listening to what Dr. Jekyll is saying. He's not.
[00:07:50] He's like, oh, there's some sort of disagreement, some sort of philosophy issue. Some sort of scientific disagreement between these two scientists. And I, you know, I'm not interested. But just because Utterson isn't interested doesn't mean that you shouldn't be interested. And those are the things that stood out to me previously.
[00:08:09] Why do Dr. Lanyon and Dr. Jekyll keep talking about each other in the same way. And keep making these little hints that there's something more going on between them.
[00:08:20] And it's only one or two times that this happens. But it's enough for me to be like, what.
[00:08:25] What's going on? You know, I. I think I said the last video. What. What scientific balderdash are you talking about? What is this? What is. What is this? You know, this deep chasm that's. That's erected itself between these two characters? That has to do with science. What is that all about?
[00:08:45] So now you start getting even more of that. Because the end of this book, this catalyst, it's not the Carew murder case, because no one cares. The Carew murder case is just to let you know that Hyde murders people.
[00:08:59] Up to that point, he hadn't done anything that was even worth reporting. He was just rude and pissing people off. The Carew murder case is like, oh, by the way, he beats people to death in the street. So he's not actually just somebody who's rude or somebody who, you know, is not a gentleman. But he actually kills people now. So then you have a different perspective of Hyde. And that comes out of nowhere. It just doesn't make any sense.
[00:09:25] Now, though, you start getting things that don't have anything to do with Hyde and have more to do with Dr. Jekyll and Dr. Lanyon.
[00:09:37] That is where my interest is really piqued. Like, that's where I'm like, okay, now we're getting into the meat of this.
[00:09:46] So the incident with Dr. Lanyon was something that stood out to me. Because all of the sudden, my favorite phrase, Dr. Lanyon dies.
[00:09:59] And we only really met Dr. Lanyon once. And we got this great description of his personality and the kind of person he was. And I really was very interested in him. And I. I was interested in what kind of friendship Utterson and Lanyon and Jekyll had with each other. That was actually really interesting to me. Because Utterson is such a different character to the other two. But in the best descriptions we have of Henry Jekyll, he seems like a really jovial, personable person.
[00:10:34] And so does Dr. Lanyon, and so is Utterson. So it was very easy for me to conjure this vision of the three of them having been friends. And what kind of friends they were at each other's parties and that sort of stuff.
[00:10:46] So I liked the little bit I understood about Dr. Lanyon. I thought he was an interesting character. But I liked. I was more intrigued by the fact that he didn't really like Jekyll as much as he used to. And, you know, the reasons he gave for that. But that, you know, it was enough to make me be like, oh, you know, why? What's going on?
[00:11:09] So it's not like we spent a lot of time with Dr. Lanyon. But it was still shocking that he died. It was still shocking. Like what? Like sort of like the Carew murder case. Oh, Hyde beat someone to death in the street. And then, oh, Dr. Lanyon dies.
[00:11:25] What happened to Dr. Lanyon? Like, did Hyde kill Dr. Lanyon? Because that would be something that you might expect.
[00:11:32] You know, where this book has gone. But if you remember, Hyde has disappeared. After he murdered Carew, he kind of disappeared, and the police couldn't find him, and nobody could find him. So it was kind of like, okay, well, Hyde's gone. We don't have to deal with this evil non gentleman anymore or whatever.
[00:11:51] But then all of a sudden you're like, oh, Dr. Lanyon is dead. But Hyde didn't kill Dr. Lanyon. Dr. Lanyon just died.
[00:12:00] And what kind of really sucked me into it was how Dr. Lanyon died and why Dr. Lanyon died. And it just. It was something I really started spinning on, and I found it really concerning and kind of terrifying that this happened.
[00:12:21] So it's been a while, right? I think it says that.
[00:12:26] It just really says time ran on. Right. Thousands of pounds were offered in reward for the death of Sir Danvers, but Mr. Hyde completely disappeared. You know, no one could find him.
[00:12:39] And while they were looking for him, all of these different things about who Mr. Hyde was started coming out. As far as him being cruel and callous and violent, and he had weird associates, and he, you know, he spent time with, you know, bad people and questionable people, and that there was all this negativity about who he was. Like, so as they're investigating him, people are coming forward and telling their stories about Hyde, and you're realizing that he's really this violent, awful person. We never got much of that in the book except that he killed Karu. Other than that, we didn't get any evidence of this. There's no, there's no incidents that suggests what kind of person Hyde is. And the incidents that, you know, the, the, the interactions that people have with him are kind of like. Yeah, so, like, what's the.
[00:13:31] What's the issue? What's the problem? What. What is bothering you so much? Because they don't seem to be all that terrible, frankly.
[00:13:40] But now, you know, we're getting. Oh, well, Hyde is gone. But now we're finding out from all these people that he was callous and violent and he had a vile life and he had strange associates and, you know, and all of the hatred that people had from him. Okay, we're. We're finding that out after the fact.
[00:13:59] But it doesn't necessarily say how long it had been, you know, that he's been gone.
[00:14:05] It just said that, you know, a new life began for Dr. Jekyll, that he came out of his seclusion, he renewed relations with his friends, Became once more their familiar guest and entertainer. And I found this to be particularly.
[00:14:26] It says, and whilst he had always been known for charities, he was now no less distinguished for religion.
[00:14:37] So I thought it was interesting that all this time, you know, he's been, you know, famous for whatever he was famous for as a doctor, as a scientist.
[00:14:52] He wasn't necessarily associated with, like, religious charities and religious things.
[00:15:00] But now he is. Now he's just as distinguished, you know, for religious things as he was for other things.
[00:15:13] And that sort of stood out to me. That. That changed.
[00:15:18] That changed for him, especially during this time, you know, in which the book is written. That's.
[00:15:26] That stands out.
[00:15:29] That is telling. And I think that for readers at the time of reading this, they would have also thought something very specific about that. That would have been something that maybe would have stood out to them as an aha kind of situation, possibly.
[00:15:52] So, you know, he was busy. He was much in the open air, did good. His face seemed open and bright.
[00:16:00] And it said, for about two months, Dr. Jeckyll was at peace.
[00:16:07] On 8 January, Utterson dined at the doctor's with a small party. And Lanyon had been there. And the face of the host had looked from, you know, from one to the other, as in the old days when the trio were inseparable friends.
[00:16:21] So this is all good. So Hyde's been gone. Jekyll's, like, out and about again. He's doing his thing. And even, like, Lanyon is showing up at his party. So this seems like a good thing.
[00:16:33] On the 12th, and again on the 14th, the door was shut against the lawyer.
[00:16:39] And on the 15th also, he tried again and was refused.
[00:16:44] And having now been used to for the last two months seeing his friend almost daily, he found this return to solitude to weigh upon his spirits so understandable. It's like you're worried about your friend for the longest time because of this Hyde thing. The weird will hide kills somebody. You suspect your friend of, like, forging a letter, you know, to sort of clear Hyde's name and all this stuff. And finally Hyde's gone. And you start to see your friend sort of recover and, you know, be more jovial and out and about. And you're like, yeah, this is great. But then he starts not seeing you again like this. Day after day after day, it goes back to this kind of thing. So of course it makes sense that Utterson is like, okay, what's happened now? Like, has Hyde come back? What's what's going on.
[00:17:34] So he keeps showing up and Pool keeps telling him the doctor's indisposed. The doctor won't see anybody, blah, blah, blah. And Utterson goes away feeling like there's something definitely really wrong. Now.
[00:17:45] So since he can't see Jekyll, he goes to see Lanyon. Why not? Right? Because Lanyon was at the last party they went to and everything seemed good.
[00:17:58] So, you know, he said he. He betook himself to Dr. Lanyon's there. @ least he was not denied admittance. But when he came in, he was shocked.
[00:18:11] The change which had taken place in the doctor's appearance.
[00:18:15] He had his death warrant written legibly on his face.
[00:18:21] So I'm interested all of a sudden. Not that I wasn't before, but like when I first read this, I was like, huh, what's going on?
[00:18:29] The rosy man had grown pale.
[00:18:32] His flesh had fallen away.
[00:18:34] He was visibly balder and older.
[00:18:38] And yet it was not so much these tokens of a swift physical decay that arrested the lawyer's notice as a look in the eye and quality of manner that seemed to testify to some deep seated terror of the mind.
[00:18:55] Now again, we don't have a lot of experience and writing about Dr. Lanyon and I want to find the one for most of this book, you know, we have to.
[00:19:20] We're relying on just very sparse information, right? We're relying on very sparse information about Dr. Hyde. Like that he walks lightly, you know, he has soft footsteps, that he's. He's dwarfish, he's short.
[00:19:35] These like, these little descriptions. Except for Utterson, who probably has the most description of any character in this book.
[00:19:44] But the description of Lanyon that we get really made me very interested in him.
[00:19:53] When he first goes to visit him, the. The butler welcomed him in and ushered him to the dining room where Dr. Lanyon sat alone over his wine. This was a hearty, healthy, dapper, red faced gentleman with a shock of hair prematurely white in a boisterous and decided manner. At the sight of Mr. Utterson, he sprang up from his chair and welcomed him with both hands. The geniality, as was the way of the man, was somewhat theatrical, theatre to the eye, but it reposed on genuine feeling.
[00:20:27] So just with that really is all you get about Dr. Lanyon.
[00:20:33] You can kind of make an idea of what type of person this is.
[00:20:38] So that is a stark contrast to the description we have of him now. There is something really wrong with this guy. He is sitting here balder, older, his flesh had fallen away. His Death warrant written legibly upon his face.
[00:21:10] What'd you say?
[00:21:13] Yeah, that is fucked up.
[00:21:18] Since I listened to the audiobook version.
[00:21:22] Richard Armitage does a great job vocally of kind of giving Lanyon this absolutely deathly ill kind of speech. When he's, you know, reading the lines and acting those lines. He makes him sound pretty much like he's on his deathbed. Which I think is the impression you're supposed to have based on this description.
[00:21:51] So Utterson is like. Well, you know, Utterson thinks to himself, well, he's a doctor, so of course he knows his own state. And maybe his days are numbered. So the look on his face is more like he's. He's kind of terrified of.
[00:22:06] Of dying. Like he looks like a doomed man.
[00:22:13] So when Utterson asks him about why he looks like this.
[00:22:19] I mean, yeah, imagine, like why you look like this. But he says, when Utterson remarked on his ill looks.
[00:22:27] Lanyon basically says, I have had a shock and I shall never recover.
[00:22:36] It is a question of weeks while life has been pleasant.
[00:22:42] I liked it. Yes, sir. I used to like it.
[00:22:47] I sometimes think if we knew all, we should be more glad to get away.
[00:22:56] This paragraph, this answer.
[00:22:59] When I first read this, I was like, what the fuck has happened to Lanyon?
[00:23:11] When you say, I have had a shock. And you follow it up, like with. I used to love life, but I think if we knew everything there was to know, we would be happier to die. Kind of thing like that is not really.
[00:23:24] What kind of shock?
[00:23:28] What the hell happened to you exactly? Like what.
[00:23:32] Where do you get this idea from? What kind of shock are we talking about?
[00:23:39] And that really pulled me in like that really, you know, made me zero in on this. Because this was very unexpected for me. Like I said, Hyde's been gone.
[00:23:53] He murdered somebody, kill Shocker, you know. But like, this is something else entirely. Okay? This is something else unrelated to Hyde.
[00:24:06] So Utterson being, you know, Utterson, he. His response to that, which, I mean, what kind of response do you have to someone who says something like this? His response to that is. Jekyll is ill too. Have you seen him? I. I. Look, Utterson is my favorite character. I don't care what you think.
[00:24:26] But at the same time, this is also the same guy who has been completely ignoring the conflict between his two friends. And just being like, ah, whatever. It's just something. Science thing, get over it kind of thing. He's not really understanding.
[00:24:43] And I don't think he's thinking at the level that he should be thinking. And I think that anyone reading this book, whether it was back at the time that it was published or even today, I don't think people are necessarily reading between the lines of what Lanyon says and what Jekyll says about Lanyon and going, what's going on?
[00:25:06] Utterson easily dismisses it as just a disagreement between old friends.
[00:25:10] But if he thought a little bit deeper and listened to what both of them were saying about each other and dare I say, cared about where these two gentlemen are coming from in their dislike for each other, maybe he would have.
[00:25:31] I. I'm stopping myself because I.
[00:25:34] I don't think this is true, But I'll finish what I was going to say. I was going to say maybe he would have been able to. To have a better understanding earlier.
[00:25:43] But before I said that, I thought to myself, no, he wouldn't. Because Utterson is supposed to be like us. He's supposed to be just a normal, everyday sort of person. Yes, he's a lawyer, but that doesn't make him some sort of magical genius.
[00:25:58] He's just another person in the world trying to figure out something that is so crazy and fantastical. And there's no reason for him to take these giant leaps. And most people, if they read this book because they already know the story, they read into these giant leaps, they read into things and they go, oh, I know what this means. Oh, I know where this is going. Because you already know the story. You have to be able to come at this from the perspective of somebody who does not know what the end result of the story is. You have to come at it as someone who knows nothing about this crazy science, this crazy madness. Right? If you're just reading this book for the first time, there is absolutely no reason for you to make any kind of assumptions or have any kind of fantastical notions in your mind about what is going on with Dr. Jekyll. There's no evidence of it in the book. There's not even any breadcrumbs about it in the book. And if you want to consider the breadcrumbs I talked about as actual breadcrumbs for the plot, they're not really.
[00:27:04] Because they're just really talking about science. They're talking about blasphemy. They're talking about scientific balderdash. They're saying things like, there's a science problem, but they're not giving you any indication of what the science problem is. They're not. There's no, like, weird, you know, if it was a movie or a TV show. There might be some weird perspective or something, or maybe Hyde kind of is wearing Jekyll's coat or something. There would be. They would give you some kind of indicator for you to start making guesses at some point early on.
[00:27:40] They wouldn't just leave out all that information and then drop it in your lap at the end and say, oh, by the way, this is what was happening. That's how this book reads.
[00:27:48] If you're not paying attention to little teeny tiny things. And they are little teeny tiny things. A sentence here, a sentence there. If you're like utterson and you're just looking at it in a general sense, there is no reason for you to have any clue what is going on. It would be easy for you to believe that Jekyll's being blackmailed. It would be easy for you to believe that Hyde is just not the gentleman that most Londoners are accustomed to. It would be easy for you to understand that these two old friends who are both doctors, maybe in different realms of science or whatever, but don't necessarily agree or are seeing eye to eye on every scientific philosophy that exists. It would be easy for you to say all of those things were true and not for you to go leaping wildly into, oh, he's transforming into this other guy. There's no reason for you to think that it doesn't exist in here.
[00:28:47] It's simply not there. And I'm not saying it's not there because I don't see it. I, I have read this thing word for word. There's only a couple of little sentences that would give you any indication that this story has anything to do with science.
[00:29:04] We don't even get Jekyll's perspective until the very last chapter of this book. The only thing we hear from Jekyll is, don't worry, I. I hide. You know, know Hyde is gone. I can get rid of him at any time. And I have a great interest in him. I wish he would take care of him kind of thing. Giving the illegitimate child vibes, you know, Jekyll doesn't even say anything. He doesn't allude to anything.
[00:29:32] So when you get to this part of the book and you're like, lanyon is dead, or he's dying right now and he's saying, like, I used to love life, but I think if we knew all, we would be more glad to get away.
[00:29:51] We would be more glad to die to get away from life. If we knew everything about life. And like, the implication is that there's some Things that we just shouldn't know.
[00:30:02] That paragraph of his is incredibly telling. And it's dark and it's like, what happened? And all Utterson has to say is, jekyll is ill too.
[00:30:12] Did you both eat the same bad cheese? Like, what is it?
[00:30:17] Utterson is just the basic dude. I don't expect him to read too much into that. At the same time, Lanyon is like, right, I wish to see or hear no more of Dr. Jekyll. He said in a loud, unsteady voice, I am quite done with that person, and I beg that you will spare me any allusion to one whom I regard as dead.
[00:30:47] Okay, this is a lot more than just a scientific disagreement to which Utterson, our favorite person, says, tut tut.
[00:31:01] And then goes on to say, after a considerable pause, can I do anything? He inquired.
[00:31:09] We are three very old friends, Lanyon. We shall not live to make others again.
[00:31:15] Utterson really cares about his friends.
[00:31:20] He is a loyal friend. He's a loyal gentleman, and he cares deeply about Jekyll, and he cares deeply about Lanyon. And he wants them to be friends again. He wants this positive, like, whatever scientific disagreements or, you know, educated disagreements you're having, philosophical disagreements. Is it really more important than friendship? Is it really more important than the friends that you've had since you were at university or.
[00:31:56] I love this attitude.
[00:31:58] I do. I.
[00:32:00] That is the attitude that motivates Utterson throughout this whole book. He cares about Jekyll. He's worried about his friend. He just wants to understand what's going on and why his friend is behaving in these ways and why his other friend, you know, and him don't get along.
[00:32:16] He cares. I mean, he's just.
[00:32:19] He's such a fascinating character. And I could see where you would hit this point and be like, utterson, can you wake up a minute and see what's going on? But I disagree with that.
[00:32:31] I disagree with you ex having expectations of Utterson to be like, oh my God, what are you saying you want to die? Or getting like reading deeply into what Lanyon is saying.
[00:32:44] He. He only cares about the friendship. He only cares about the well being of their friendship and these two men. And I love that that's the focus. Even though this guy is literally turning into a skeleton sitting in his chair and he's like, I don't want to talk about Jekyll. I consider Jekyll to be dead. And Utterson is still like, well, is there anything I can do? Like, we've been friends for so Long. Like, are you listening to yourself? Like, are you listening to Lanyon? Lanyon is sitting here telling you, I don't want to talk about him anymore. Right? And Utterson is still like, can we talk about this? I want Madeline.
[00:33:28] Madeline Ashton. Seriously, Dr. Jekyll is Utterson's Madeline Ashton. There. There is nothing that we can do to get him to stop talking about Jekyll. Even though his friend is literally dying and shriveling.
[00:33:47] You know, he's pulling at her. He chose point poorly right there. He chose poorly in his chair, right?
[00:33:59] Just wasting away. And all he wants to do is like, can we be friends? Can't we talk about this? I appreciate that. I do. As. As much as I'm making fun of it and as silly as I'm making it, I'm saying that I love Utterson's purity in that regard.
[00:34:17] And he's not motivated by anything other than the love he has for his friends. And I think that there's something to be said about that.
[00:34:26] Yes, he could be more observant. Yes, he could be a little bit more concerned about what the real problem is between his friends. But I don't necessarily know that a good friend gets in between their friends when they're arguing. I think a good friend sort of tries to find a way of, you know, getting everybody to mutually work together. And doesn't kind of go back and forth between each friend and do all that nonsense. I think a good friend doesn't necessarily try to mediate whatever the disagreement is. I think a good friend supports both friends and maybe tries to get in a little of, well, have you talked to him? Or maybe if we talked, or whatever. I think that Utterson is a good friend, and I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. And even more so, I hate the fact that everybody who makes adaptations of this work ignores his existence completely. I think he's such a vital character in this book. And he's the only character driving the plot forward.
[00:35:25] And to ignore him, to ignore the love that this man has for these two other men.
[00:35:32] To ignore the fact that he's so determined to save his friend that he's. He's willing to go through these lengths of investigating Hyde and. And going here and going there and following Hyde and trying to get to the bottom of things.
[00:35:48] And at the same time, deeply respecting his friend's privacy. Even though he's worried about Jekyll and he thinks Jekyll is in trouble. He's. He's not gonna jump in and pry he's not gonna drag the. The guy out into the street or. And say, tell me what's going on, and beat him with a club or something to get information out of him. He's so respectful and so loyal.
[00:36:10] And I think there's something to be said about that. I think that's.
[00:36:15] That's what makes me like him so much.
[00:36:18] The. The innocence and the simplicity of his actions and also the loyalty and love that he has. I hate that he is virtually unknown by people who haven't read this book. I hate that his presence as a friend in Jekyll's life and a friend in Dr. Lanyon's life is just ignored.
[00:36:38] I. I hate that. I really do hate that. And I also hate that Dr. Lanyon doesn't exist.
[00:36:47] I hate that what has happened to Dr. Lanyon as a result of Dr. Jekyll is left out of adaptation. Adaptations. I hate that the pain that Jekyll causes to the people that care about him, to his friends is sort of just ignored.
[00:37:07] And I think that's weird and it's unfortunate because male friendships and.
[00:37:16] The.
[00:37:18] The recognition of. Of male friendships and, and. And the loyalty that Utterson has to these men is something that I think should be celebrated and it should be focused on. And also the destruction of those relationships because of one person's selfishness. One person's. Let's call it an illness, right, that can get in the way of relationships. That is something that is interesting and should be examined, right? That one person can go downhill, like, let's put it in more simplistic way or more modern terms and say. Like, let's say Jekyll's an alcoholic or let's say Jekyll's a drug addict, right? And what kind of damage that causes and what kind of tension and stress that causes on. On the relationships that you have with that person?
[00:38:07] That is something that I wish was sort of examined, you know, through this story. Because I think this. The things that are happening with Dr. Jekyll, Dr. Lanyon and Utterson and all of the people involved could easily speak to addiction or let's say even some sort of mental illness that can cause a disconnect, that can cause tension and pain and trauma in relationships.
[00:38:36] I wish people looked at the story a little bit more that way instead of just ignoring the cost and the damage that one person's illness can bring to a friendship structure or a family structure.
[00:38:54] I. I just. It's. It sucks that people only care about Jekyll and they think that Jekyll is so interesting and so fascinating. And they want to make all these, you know, movies and TV series about him. But he is causing so much damage. And I.
[00:39:12] It's sad that they just don't care about that. Or that they overlook it or don't think it's interesting to talk about the damage that he causes in his selfish pursuits, right?
[00:39:23] So this conversation between Utterson and Lanyon Brings a lot of that up for me. Because Utterson is just really talking about the friendship. We're old friends. We won't live to make others.
[00:39:38] Can anything be done? You know, have you talked to him? You know, he's still pushing for this, still pushing for that friendship. And Dr. Lanyon is like, as far as I'm concerned, Jekyll is dead. I don't want to talk about him. I don't want to hear about him.
[00:39:54] And Lanyon says, nothing can be done. Ask himself.
[00:39:59] And Utterson says he will not see me. And Lanyon says, I'm not surprised at that.
[00:40:06] Someday, Utterson, after I'm dead, you may perhaps come to learn the right and wrong. Of this I cannot tell you.
[00:40:16] And in the meantime, if you can sit and talk with me of other things, for God's sake, stay and do so.
[00:40:25] But if you cannot keep clear of this accursed topic. Then in God's name, God, for I cannot bear it.
[00:40:35] And I wonder if Utterson stayed and talked with him about anything else. Or whether he had to Madeline Ashton the hell out of the whole thing and ended up just leaving.
[00:40:44] Because the next sentence is, as soon as he got home, Utterson sat down and wrote to Jekyll. So I don't know if that's just a bad transition or whatever, But I wonder if he bothered to stay with his friend. I want to hope that he did. I want to hope that he saw that his friend was dying and was. And stayed with him to talk about anything and have some tea or whatever. Or whether he was just like, no, I want to talk about Madeline Ashton, right? You know, like, I love Utterson, but sometimes, you know, like these kind of moments, I'm just like, you really need to stop and look at what's happening and instead of trying to push forward. But there are people like this, right? There are these kind of eternally optimistic and therefore completely blind type of people who won't see.
[00:41:37] What is it? The. The flowers for the trees. Is that the phrase?
[00:41:42] Or something?
[00:41:43] Like, they. They. They won't see what's in front of them because they. They're. They're either so focused on something else, or they're so distracted by something else, they won't see the forest for the trees. Is that what it is?
[00:41:56] Like, I feel like Utterson is kind of like that, if I understand what that phrase means. Like.
[00:42:05] Or maybe it's the opposite. The individual things are not something that Utterson cares about. He cares about more the. He cares more about the forest than he does about the individual trees. Like, he's looking at the whole picture and saying, we're friends. We should stay friends. Whatever we need to do to be friends, let's be friends. You know? But he's not looking at all the individual factors that are going into why the friendship is breaking down or why his friend Jekyll is breaking down. He knows enough to ask questions of Jekyll and to be suspicious of Jekyll and even to kind of hide things on Jekyll's behalf as a lawyer.
[00:42:42] To hide things.
[00:42:45] Thanks, Corey.
[00:42:48] But he's. He's not willing to see the bigger picture.
[00:42:53] Or he only sees the bigger picture he prefers. Maybe that's what I mean to say.
[00:43:00] And in being loyal, he's not being as sensitive, he's not being as aware.
[00:43:09] And he's not willing to maybe do all the things that he should do or ask all the questions that he should ask because he's so loyal.
[00:43:18] And he just wants his friends to be friends. And he wants them to be able to have what they had before.
[00:43:26] I think there's, of course, a flaw in that, but I also kind of admire that. At the same time, I know it's wrong and I know it's bad, but I like Utterson because of that, I think. But I can recognize that he needs to be a better friend.
[00:43:45] But in certain circumstances, like I said, like with addiction or like mental illness, where people are struggling and they're hurting those around them, but also hurting themselves.
[00:44:00] Where do you.
[00:44:02] Where do you stand on that? You know, how do you be a good friend to everyone?
[00:44:07] How do you push back and also support. It's a very difficult line, you know, It's a very difficult path to walk. And I think Utterson reminds me of that kind of person who's trying to be the right person in both circumstances for all the people involved, but you can't necessarily.
[00:44:32] And sometimes you have to do harder things. You know what I mean?
[00:44:37] So Utterson writes to Jekyll and, you know, complaining about his exclusion from the house and asking the cause of this unhappy break with Lanyon.
[00:44:52] And the next day he gets a long Letter, often very pathetically worded and sometimes darkly mysterious in Drift, basically stating that the quarrel with Lenin is incurable.
[00:45:07] And Jekyll goes on to say a few things, basically that, you know, I do not blame our old friend, but I share his view that we must never meet.
[00:45:17] I mean, from henceforth to lead a life of extreme seclusion.
[00:45:23] You must not be surprised, nor must you doubt my friendship. If my door is often shut, even to you.
[00:45:32] You must suffer me to go my own dark way.
[00:45:35] I have brought upon myself a punishment and a danger that I cannot name. If I am the chief of sinners, I am the chief of sufferers also.
[00:45:46] And at the end, he basically asks Utterson to respect his silence.
[00:45:51] And I found that section really interesting too.
[00:45:57] As far as, you know, what are you to do in that circumstance, right? What are you to do when your friend is going down a dark path? And again, I liken this to, like, addiction or, you know, unfortunate. The unfortunate effect of, like, what mental illness can have on a person.
[00:46:17] And they end up being isolated, either because they isolate themselves or because their illness keeps them isolated.
[00:46:26] You have to understand, you have to respect, you have to do what you can. You have to support. And it's even echoed here in him saying, you know, don't doubt my friendship, even if I don't want to see you, even if I have to keep to myself, we're still friends, that kind of thing. And I just thought there was such a powerful and. And modern feel for this kind of ailment and predicament. And a lot of people, you know, read into Jekyll and Hyde as being about mental illness. You know, that Jekyll has a mental illness or, you know, maybe disassociative personality disorder, or whatever you want to call it. That's sort of mirrored this idea of him transforming from one person to the next. Right? And that would be a really interesting discussion to have if the last chapter of the book didn't exist, where he explains everything, if he didn't explain everything. And you could look at the story as an allegory of some kind or, you know, some way of talking about addictions or mental illness in a way, in a different kind of way, then that would be interesting discussions to have. And it would allow people to delve into this book and these relationships between these mental differently. But because that last chapter of the book exists, no one cares to talk about it. No one cares to get into the story as something else to examine. They only want to talk about what Jekyll did, why he did it and how fascinating that must be.
[00:47:56] And I think that's a loss. I think that's a severe loss.
[00:48:02] End of Part one Thanks for listening, Sa Saint.
